@jdp23 Cwtch is 'just' built on Tor, right? I'm particularly looking for novel network designs, consensus mechanisms, actual networks, that sort of thing, that try to advance the state of research in P2P systems, rather than applications built on existing systems.

@jdp23 (Basically, blockchains kind of wrecked this entire research space, and I'm hoping that there's some work somewhere that I missed)

@joepie91@pixie.town yeah agreed about blockchains wrecking stuff. and yes cwtch is built on Tor, so interesting as at the app level but not new infrastructure ... it's a great question, it'll be interesting to see what people come up with.

@serapath Holepunch is a sketchy company and absolutely not anti-capitalist (and did some very shitty things to Dat)

@joepie91 holepunch is not dat.
holepunch is a dat-ecosystem project and there are many who build on top of dat.

dat has implementations in C/JS and Rust.
The former is mostly maintained by holepunch at the moment because they have funding, but it is all ooen source.

Dat is a public good 501c3 organisation with a consortium.

Open Source can be used by anyone, i dont really underatand whay that has to do with how dat works

@joepie91

the pear runtime is a dat runtime and open source as well. It has no blockchain and no token associated with it and is all open source and meant to stay token and blockchain free.

@serapath I'm not really interested in arguing this. I was following Dat (and then Hypercore) long before Holepunch got involved, and it absolutely got co-opted. What the structure is on paper doesn't really matter.

@serapath (I mentioned "anti-capitalist" as a requirement in my original post and Holepunch is literally the reason that I did)

@joepie91

Why do you focus on holepunch?

There is dat-ecosystem, an ecosystem with 20+ projects. Holepunch is just one of them.

There is a rust implemwntation of dat whoch has absolutely nothing to do with holepunch.

Of holepunch was ever to stop developing the stack, others relying on it would pick it up. it is open source after all.

The tech has no lock in, no blockchain, not tied to any tokens....

in an imperfect world, some normal companies fund open source, but it isnt the only one

@joepie91 it isnt co-opted.

dat-ecosystem started in 2013. is a 501c3 public good company. has more than 20 active projects of which one of them is holepunch, but it has an independent second implementation in rust that has nothing to do with holepunch and on top of all of it it is open source.

not proprietary.
not closed source.
no token or blockchain.

isnt that a bit unfair?
its not just on paper.

what is the issue?
which project do you like more?
iroh? which is literally a for profit?

@serapath Like I said, I'm not interested in arguing this. I already know what all the arguments are, because I've had this exact discussion with these exact arguments before with Dat proponents and it did not pass my sniff test.

I would rather build on something where I do not have to guess or hope or assume about what will happen with the governance in the long run. It's just not worth it to put my energy into this.

@serapath (By the way, IPFS failed the same sniff test in the same way years before they started doing sketchy blockchain and commercial shit)

@serapath And to make this explicit: "it'll probably be fine because of how open-source is supposed to work" just isn't good enough. That's why I asked explicitly for *anti-capitalist* tech. Which Dat isn't.

@joepie91 dat ecosystem is and always was anticapitalist.

it started in 2013 and even without funding survives soley on volunteer work since then.

projects come and go, but dat is here to stay.
also, it literally gives you legal guarantees by being structured as a 501c3 from day1.

what guarantees does veilid give you?

if you cut out holepunch and anything related to it, dat is still fully functioning.... and has proven to outlive lota of other projects despite the lqck of funding. no?

@joepie91 yes. ipfs had venture capitalists from day 1 and received hundreds of millions

@joepie91
😑
you can make a project using dat, interacting only woth dat ecosystem (a 501c3 public good company), using only the rust implementation and **never** touch any of the holepunch stuff.

I know that dat is being smeared a lot by IPFS and web3 related projects and people working for those blockchains, because they rather onboard people into "regen/web3" stuff and want to avoid actual community and 501c3 public good projects.

They have a lot of marketing budget and it seems it works 😔

@serapath What part of "I am not interested in arguing this" was not clear?