re: wayland
@aylamz @ch0ccyra1n Indeed they are not tech companies, but I don't see why that would mean they can't do gradual rollouts or testing channels (especially with eg. GNOME getting backed by Red Hat). The concept is not very complicated to implement.
> the devs are much more motivated to fix stuff if their and their users' workflow is broken.
I'm sure, but is this software being made for the developers, or is it being made for the users? Because it's the users who end up suffering.
re: wayland
@aylamz @ch0ccyra1n When people talk about "issues with Wayland", they generally aren't talking about the general technical quality like the performance or tearing, but rather about tools they have come to rely on (toolbars, screenreaders, automation scripts, etc.) no longer working.
> The reason for the wayland push is/was (afaik, might be wrong) to get more people to use wayland, to get the issues fixed faster. The wayland issues aren't going to get fixed if no one's using it.
Sure, but there's a reason why tech companies have gradual rollouts and 'insider programs' and whatnot for these things. You want to do this in a controlled manner, and on an opt-in basis for as long as possible (even if actively encouraged), to avoid setting everyone's workflows on fire, like has been happening here.
The desire is understandable, but switching everyone over to an incomplete replacement and then letting them be the guinea pigs without ever getting their agreement, is absolutely the wrong way to go about this, and that is why people despise Wayland so much.
re: wayland
@schrottkatze@chaos.social @ch0ccyra1n Right, it looks like all of these don't work because they expect some sort of privileged access to the window manager (in the sense of being able to manage windows/layering and/or capture input)?
That's definitely one of the major items that still seems to be missing standardization - KDE has a custom extension (org_kde_plasma_shell) but only KWin implements that, and I can't immediately find a standardized equivalent :(
This is essentially the "no standard protocol for separating window manager from compositor" problem, as far as I can tell. Which is solvable in principle, but it doesn't seem like anyone has yet.
re: wayland
@schrottkatze@chaos.social @ch0ccyra1n What specific issues are you running into today, and on which DE? As there's a fairly good chance that they are DE issues rather than Wayland issues, by this point (with the important stuff being more or less stable now).
re: wayland
@ch0ccyra1n I don't know enough about the internal politics within desktop environment projects to know what exactly drove these decisions; all I can see from my perspective is Wayland *just about* starting to be usable (with a bunch of major features still in staging/unstable), but some DEs have already been shipping it for a long time with predictable complaints following that (like missing screensharing).
Maybe the devs were impatient, maybe some manager in a company somewhere jumped the shark, maybe it was a consequence of Xorg support being unsustainable, maybe it was something else, I really have no idea about that part, unfortunately.
(My perspective is mainly that of a Wayland implementer with no direct involvement in other implementations)
wayland
The problem with Wayland is really not the protocol itself, nor that it is extension-based (that is actually a very good thing!), nor some weird conspiracy theory about it 'competing' with Xorg or being some kind of 'takeover' (it's the same people developing it! It's effectively just the next version.)
The real, actual problem with Wayland is that some desktop environments started defaulting to its use before it and its ecosystem were at feature parity with the systems and tools people were already using. Some projects jumped the shark. That's it.
We can be critical of something like Wayland without losing all nuance and inventing conspiracies and doom that don't actually exist.
thoughts about legally shaky software licenses, somewhat hot take
@owl Right. They don't want the WTFPL either, even though that is just about as unambiguous as it gets (and actual lawyers have confirmed that it's a valid license).
thoughts about legally shaky software licenses, somewhat hot take
@joepie91 "Your software will be legally risky to *any* kind of high-profile organization"
adding to that very specifically: this includes any distro other than AUR, nixpkgs, flathub, and snapcraft.
thoughts about legally shaky software licenses, somewhat hot take
So there's an increasingly common argument in favour of licenses that prohibit using the software for evil, or other difficult-to-define restrictions - the argument goes that it's *good* that it's unclear from a legal perspective, because that scares off the people you don't want using your software.
While that is true, and I agree with the *spirit* of the idea, I think that that's overlooking the collateral damage of this approach, which has two main forms:
1. Your software will be legally risky to *any* kind of high-profile organization, *including* the ones doing good work, and so it will be unavailable to them too
2. More insidiously, it makes it very difficult to build on top of, limiting the benefit it has to the *desirable* users. I'll explain this one more below.
Building on top of someone else's software is usually a big decision that's mostly irreversible, you become entirely dependent on the upstream; you need a pretty large amount of trust in the upstream to make that kind of decision, as the future of your project (and all the work you've put into it) will hinge on it.
This is a problem especially in the context of disabled and otherwise margnalized folks who are trying to tackle difficult problems; they'll often have a very limited amount of energy, and will want to make it count.
That means that they are both a) dependent on building on top of other people's work, to reduce the energy that's needed to build a thing, and b) *particularly* badly affected if something goes wrong with the upstream, and therefore need an even higher level of trust.
Not only that, but those same marginalized folks are also some of the most vulnerable to legal pressure, including from eg. copyright trolls.
All this creates a situation where such 'shaky' licenses become a hazard; anything licensed like that may not be safe to build upon, and even if it is, their *own* project may get disregarded by others because it inherits the shakiness of the upstream's license - and they may well be targeting a whole different demographic that *does* care about this, even if the upstream doesn't.
The end result is that shakily-licensed software is not safe to build on, and so you end up severely limiting how many 'levels' of "building on top of other people's work" are possible with it - and that may sound appealing from the perspective of a 'dependencies bad' ideology, but it hampers the ability for marginalized communities to construct alternative systems and infrastructure more broadly.
This is why I don't like those kinds of licenses. Doing this on a license level all but guarantees that it is a threat only to the least privileged people, while the likely intended targets (governments, corporations) can mostly just ignore such restrictions anyway and get away with it.
If you *must* use such licenses, then please at least make sure you have an alternative solution to the question of "how are people going to be able to collaborate around this and build non-oppressive systems".
But really, there are probably better ways to scare off governments and corporations than a legal system that's stacked in their favour.
US pol: stop drinking that doom juice all of ya'll
Though I might dance & celebrate when Biden wins, it will not be for him. It'll be in spite of what he & every mealy-mouthed norms-anxious compromiser has done to put us here. And then, when I'm done dancing, (it may take a moment) I will turn around and put my focus in a new place.
I'm filled with optimism because all caution is gone from my body. We can't afford an ounce of that.
Whenever I ponder the advancements of my field I get thoroughly dejected. Take the latest "great innovations":
- **Targeted ads** ended privacy in a way that makes Gestapo look like silly children
- **Crypto** gave rise to the scourge of ransomware
- **"Self-driving" cars** destroying our hopes for good public transportation
- **AI** turning the semantic web into a web of lies
If you're not an anarchist/communist by now, you're not really paying attention.
I should start a penalty piggy bank for everytime I don't follow my own #gamedev advise 😅 this time, I did not play through the new build version after uploading
The sentiment disconnect on 'AI' between tech and the public: https://www.baldurbjarnason.com/2024/sentiment-disconnect/
In the process of moving to @joepie91. This account will stay active for the foreseeable future! But please also follow the other one.
Technical debt collector and general hype-hater. Early 30s, non-binary, ND, poly, relationship anarchist, generally queer.
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Sometimes horny on main (behind CW), very much into kink (bondage, freeuse, CNC, and other stuff), and believe it or not, very much a submissive bottom :p
My spoons are limited, so I may not always have the energy to respond to messages.
Strong views about abolishing oppression, hierarchy, agency, and self-governance - but I also trust people by default and give them room to grow, unless they give me reason not to. That all also applies to technology and how it's built.