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EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

So the EFF posted an article calling out Hurricane Electric (an ISP) for cutting off Kiwifarms, arguing that cutting off sites should never be possible: eff.org/deeplinks/2023/08/isps

... and it's the most privileged, liberal shit I've seen in a while. Let's go into why.

As a refresher: KF is a community of harassers; people whose main goal is harassing particularly marginalized people, frequently to the point of actual death. They have a number of murders on their name, and they are only legally not murders because they were driven to suicide through harassment.

It's hard to get across how relentless this community can be. There have been attempts to get them cut off from internet service providers for quite a while, because "just ignoring them" clearly doesn't work, and they will go out of their way to harass people wherever they go, using their site as an organizing platform.

So: actual, real people are being deliberately and constantly harmed by them, to the point of trauma and death. The only defense against this that has had some effect so far, has been to get their service cut off.

It's under these circumstances that the EFF made a couple of arguments:
1. This blocking might cause collateral damage for other things hosted under the same organizations.
2. This creates a slippery slope; they might also start blocking other things, like marginalized people.
3. Prosecuting KF members is the job of the cops and the courts, not of an ISP.

The first one is an easy one; if organizations don't want to be caught in the crossfire, they shouldn't knowingly associate with a community of bigoted murderers. 11 nazis at the table, etc., you know how this goes.

The second one is deceptive, however; it *sounds* like a credible issue, and it's consistent with what the EFF has campaigned for before.

Slippery slopes can be a real thing where legislation and court mandates are concerned. If an ISP is compelled to start blocking one thing, and all the legal legwork is done to make that happen, then it is indeed very likely that this will experience scope creep, and blocks of other things start being demanded.

However, this isn't about government policy. This is about a first-party decision by a corporation to block using existing means. In other words, something they could've already done for anything anyway - this decision doesn't make anything possible, it doesn't remove any barriers, it's still just as possible to block stuff as it was before.

There is no slippery slope.

The third point, however, is where the privilege really shines through. It's the job of the cops, right? Sounds very principled and reasonable. But what if the cops just... don't?

KF has been around for a long time now. Authorities know about its existence. And yet, it's still untouched - clearly the cops and courts cannot be relied upon here.

A recurring problem with liberals is that they assume that the systems are there to serve them, and by extension, to serve everybody - even when there's clear evidence that they don't, like is the case here. Those legal systems aren't serving the many marginalized targets getting harassed and murdered by Kiwifarms.

Saying "the cops should handle this, not corporations" under circumstances where they clearly don't, is functionally equivalent to saying "this should not be handled at all". It doesn't matter what you *think* cops should do, what matters is the practical effect, and whether it prevents or perpetuates harm.

The reality is that *something* needs to be done - immediately, not in some hypothetical future - to protect marginalized folks from Kiwifarms. They are getting harmed *now*, it's not hypothetical. If the cops don't do that, then the job is unfortunately left to everybody else, whether you like it or not.

And the EFF's stance that "the cops should do something about this" would be a lot more credible if the EFF actually put in some effort to make that happen, rather than just using it as a cheap defense against people not Following The Procedures.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

Oh, and as a bonus point on the "slippery slope" argument, that didn't fit into my previous post anymore...

You know who have been getting hit with corporate speech policing for a long time already? Sex workers. I don't know, but it doesn't seem like "banning KF" was really a factor in that, was it?

As usual, the "eventually it will hit marginalized people too" turns out to be "actually marginalized people were always hit by it already, just now it also hits the shitty people"

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

Loving the commentary on this thread on an external forum, insinuating that I "have no idea what I'm doing and what the consequences will be of posting things like this"

It's not as if I've spent the better part of the past 15 years deliberating the complexities of this topic, or anything like that

Nah, I'm not following the Respectable Viewpoint, so I must just be clueless!

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I also particularly can't stand the "instead of putting this responsibility on ISPs, you should put pressure on authorities to crack down on this" type argument that so often gets raised on topics like this.

Like, how about you go try that yourself, and then we'll meet back here in a year or two, once you've figured out for yourself why that's not what we're putting our energy into. Deal?

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 wait, its also basic Aceptable use policy when peering, an ISP has the right to de-peer from anyone they want, what on earth is the EFF's logic here

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@nyangogo "Corporations shouldn't be the ones to police speech", which I would agree with in principle if the effective outcome of that in current society wouldn't be "nobody polices anything"

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 yeah, im just finding it weird the EFF has an issue with basic internet infra, not to mention that somethings that Kiwi Farms has done would probably break HE's abuse policy(they dont publish this, but i assume its part of their peering and transit agreements).

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 honestly with some of the sites that have IP's in HE's address space, im surprised HE did something

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 ah, someone in a discord im in just shared this with me

https://www.he.net/aup.html

It seems HE was just enforcing their public Acceptable use Policy, and it wouldn't supprise me if KiwiFarms broke all the sections. Here is the EFF being "HE evil" and HE is just enforcing part of their contract, which is pretty reasonable(a Discrimination section in 1.7 is a nice supprise)

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 It inherently always hits marginalized folks first. If it hit the majority class first it would never work.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91@social.pixie.town tbf, hasn't EFF continuously advocated against restrictions for sex workers? EFF is pretty much the reason why I have ever heard of FOSTA and similar laws.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@antonia That only means they *really* don't have a good reason to be presenting this as some novel slippery slope.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91@social.pixie.town I mean, this concrete thing was not used against sex workers, but I think we do have every reason to believe that it will.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@antonia The point is that this isn't some hypothetical. Sex workers have been getting thrown out of everywhere for decades, including several levels removed from the direct provider.

HE throwing out KF changes exactly nothing about this situation. There is no slippery slope. We're already at the bottom of the slope, and have been for years.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 I think that might be the most galling part. Lukewarm slippery slope shit like this always notes communities that are inevitably already being impacted.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91

I like how the EFF thinks marginalized people and websites don't already get taken down when they very clearly do and in an overrepresented majority of the time. How many times have I seen queer people have to hop domains or change cloud provider or set up ridiculous rube goldberg style mechanisms for keeping themselves online?

Or the whole thing where ISPs already try to censor torrent traffic through throttling, even if it's a torrent for a completely legal file.

Or that whole thing where for a while the anarchist cook book was held in unnamed text files on random ftp servers because anything directly linking to it would get slapped

But yeah, the EFF super needs to defend the forum full of people who like to commit murder. It's very cool and normal of them to make an annual blog post about how much they love those guys

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 good god do I hate the whole don't rock the boat, be respectable, be peaceful liberal bullshit

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 The day I read that story of a man getting stabbed on a train while the cops stood one car over, watching, letting it happen until the guy had mostly ended the attack already... That was when I knew "the authorities should do something about this" will seldom work.

They know it's happening, but either they don't care, have no power to do anything or are so risk averse it's pointless to ask.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91
you will never hear people say facebook shouldn't be held responsible for allowing promotion of genocide because it's the police job to stop it, because people love shitting on facebook. but it's essentially the same argument.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 also just noticed that the EFF has not pushed this to their socials

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91
There needs to be a legal framework set up, yes. Until then this is the best thing we can do. Also speech and harassment are two different things. Libel and slander are not protected forms of speech even in free speech America

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 I totally agree with this. I was going to say that we're in a sorry state to be relying on corporations, but in reality we did this. At the end of the day HE nixed KF to protect themselves. They felt it was in their best interest because of the efforts of KF's victims and their allies.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@freakazoid @joepie91 EFF is basically accusing them of being a victim of wokeness in their PR, when they could be congratulating HE for growing a spine. A company very rarely does the right thing, and then you question their agency and principles... fucking embarrassing.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@scrottie @freakazoid @joepie91 Something hero something live long enough to become a villain.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91@social.pixie.town Ok so all this is all very reasonable, but if we're going to take justice in our own hands, can WE, the PEOPLE do it? rather than a fucking corpo cancer that should be extirpated from the internet altogether? I really don't like the idea of companies blocking parts of the internet randomly...

This sets precedent, and I'm not talking about legal precedent, I'm talking about precedent in people's mind, it's controversial now, but if nothing happens, they'll do it again, and sooner than you know, private companies blocking public communications will be normalised. They put the tip in, they're going to shove their entire corpo dick in next if we let them.

Again, this time it was KiwiFarms, good, but what if tomorrow they decide blocking all DNS providers that aren't theirs so they can steal your data? For example...

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@cody See my follow-up post; marginalized folks (eg. sex workers) already get thrown out by service providers on a regular basis, with barely anyone raising an eyebrow.

The idea that "if we let them do X, then people will forever allow them to do X" is IMO misguided; it is entirely possible to accept that they do X *under certain conditions*.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91@social.pixie.town Sex workers might get thrown out from ISPs, that's terrible, but it's not the same as content blocking sex work. One affects a single person, the other affects ALL USERS of an ISP.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@cody That is not what is happening here.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91@social.pixie.town perhaps I missunderstood the kf situation then, I should probably read the article first :kekw: but here is my point: If the case is KF got thrown off their ISP, fuck them, they more than deserve that. If the case is an ISP decided to block KF (content blocking, filtering, whatever) then that is fucked up and not ok.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@cody It is a case of the former, albeit with a level removed from the direct hosting provider.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91@social.pixie.town Ok then yeah, fully agree on this one, thanks for clearing that up... as previously stated, fuck them, and I hope no other ISP lets them use the internet xd

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment, abuse 

@joepie91 I have reported tiny smol people abusers (I don't want to use the term) on this website and the police doesn't do shit. It is so depressing. It took me months of therapy to get over what I saw (as part of what I was paid to do) and I haven't looked at the world the same way since.

The worst thing is I can't discuss half of it in public because I don't want to dox myself (and also it would be incredibly illegal). Whatever you think this community is, it is a million times worse. It's *so* bad.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 “cops should handle this” and yet it’s so crazy how they manage to find so much information. Almost as if cops are community members. Wish I could say I’m disappointed but there’s a pervasive libertarian ideological stance in open source/free software

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 Well, they were only getting 10€/month from me, but now that's going to be 10€/month less.

Sigh. I liked them, they are a less shitty FSF, and we need that, but I cannot support this

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@gorplop@pleroma.m68k.church Fuck off with your apologism.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 Randall Munroe has a way better reading of free speech: xkcd.com/1357/ . This is really not hard. Also, if you're calling organized violence "speech", you're letting the fascists pick their own narrative instead of picking it for them. Pretending like cops, not communities of free people, are going to stand up to fascists, really is the icing on the cake here. I have fucked shit up but I have never fucked up this bad.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 I always had a bit of a bad vibes feeling about EFF and couldn't quite place their stance on harassment and hate speech but they've said the quiet parts loud and clear now. So gross.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 I feel like if this sort of thing were in the hands of cops, KF would among the last things they'd enforce it against.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@kateyagi I expect a significant part of the KF userbase to be actual cops, honestly.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91
In all fairness, EFF aren't an Anarchist org or anything like that. Of course they're going to say "the cops and courts" because they're part of the system, even though they are one of the less shitty parts of it. It's exactly what I expected from them. I think that the only way to stop kiwifarms will necessarily be direct action (for legal reasons I won't get into details on this). An ISP honestly isn't going to be very effective when Tor and even VPNs exist, and as you stated, the cops and courts aren't going to protect marginalized people.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@ch0ccyra1n While that is true, I think it is important to keep highlighting this anyway. In many people's minds, the EFF still has a sort of untouchable "can do no wrong" status that I do not believe is deserved.

In that context, it does not really matter to me *why* the EFF is motivated to take the stance that they do, as I do not recognize that motivation as valid. So I will instead directly criticize the substance of what they are saying.

If that leads people to more broadly understand that maybe such a "work within the system" approach isn't a panacea after all, then all the better.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91
Absolutely! I agree

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 the EFF's defense of known harassers, just like the ACLU's defense of actual fucking Nazis, continues to undermine them.

Libertarians can all fuck off into the Sun.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 I've straight up talked to someone that KF killed, EFF going to bat for them is disgusting. (Rest in peace, Near.)

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91
re: point 3
I think EFFs argument is lacking, because they focus only prosecuting individual KFers. KF is a great example why measures against platforms should be on the table.

About your cops & courts take... Let me put it like this: do you really want the deciding entity on such cases be one, that could be bought by Musk or Thiel tomorrow?
With proper regulation, the resources for the dropKF campaign could have been used on...

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@jaschop They already are the deciding entity.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91
...could have been used on a court case to make the case that KF behaved malicious or criminally negligent about the harrassment it enabled. The court could mandate all ISPs dealing in the US to deny service to KF mirrors.

I don't know how that would be implemented exactly, but it sounds like a better mechanism than relying on the good will of private companies.

re: EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@jaschop There is a reason that that wasn't the approach taken.

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91 ah, right on schedule 11 months after the other time they posted some nonsense in defense of KF
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/10/internet-not-facebook-why-infrastructure-providers-should-stay-out-content

EFF, kiwifarms, death, harassment :boost_requested: 

@joepie91

But what if the cops just... don't?

I wouldn't be surprised if nontrivial number of KF memberd were cops.

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