Today I stumbled upon a very intersting (but also lengthy) blog post discussing currencies (crypto and fiat).
Thought provoking.
I definitely recommend reading it.
If anyone has any opinions on what is being said I'd be interested to hear them.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of the article, but points out a lot of interesting things which might be very relevant now that trump was elected.
@serapath "If you want to compare Bitcoin to something else, compare it to fire, the number zero, the wheel, the printing press, or electricity." Sorry this is just hilarious
I agree that this is a rather funny comparison.
The main idea for it - i assume - is that there is no central issuer, it is decentralized and limited in supply. That has never been achieved in history, even if you wanted, nobody could create such a mechanism.
I think it could end capitalism
@serapath @powersource you cannot end capitalism without ending capital, i.e., private property. Changing the rules of money which have no inherent value changes nothing if the ability to exclude people from using the real assets of the world remains unchanged.
In lieu of that, the ability to conduct monetary policy with fiat money is one of the few tools we could use to loosen the hold that billionaires have over us - if we dared. Part of that would be to change the rules of credit.
@joelving @powersource
i disagree.
houses exist. streets exist.
somebody owns it.
maybe a rich billionaire.
maybe "the city" (e.g. controlled thrn by whoever governs it) ..like a republican major... trump... some rightwinger, maybe some left winger... but some small group of folks controls it.
maybe a small community owns it, and defends it against outsiders.
accountants will write it into books.
the ability to exclude people gets reduced dramatically if we end niney printers.
no more mkney to print to pay exorbitant police and military.
no more money printer to buy up all stuff and inflate other peoples wealth away so they wouldnt be able to have access any ire because they cant pay
@serapath @joelving @powersource The rich do not get rich through printing money. They get rich through exploitation.
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource a powerful advantage in the hands of crooked politicians.
it is also a drop in the ocean of money printing through banks and VCs...
they print as well and even more
now it is in the hand of trump.
yes. some little money is shut up money for activists but the millions go for big business to their capitalist friends.
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource
rules of ownership should be changed too.
i do think the way to get there is make new organisations who build stuff (products/services/etc...) and outcompete the capitalists.
this shpuld be easy. people are skilled and capitalist companies are full of inefficiencies and corporate bullshit politics...
...the problem is, as soon as there are successful alternative ways of organising... e.g. bwst recent example is the success and growth of nodejs/npm ecosystem
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource .... as soon as there is success, the capitalists, a.k.a crypto shitcoiners move in ans print money to hire people, make competitors, pay for propoaganda, a.k.a ads/marketing, to disrupt the successful movement with huge software supply chains
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
the rich get rich through money printing which is the exploitation.
they hire the poor and give them pieces of paper for their labour.... and they can because they print it
@serapath @joelving @powersource ... no, that is not how it works, and that is not where the power dynamics are. If it were that simple, you could simply decide not to use their money and the problem would be solved. The fact that that hasn't happened should tell you that there's more going on here.
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
no i think that IS EXACTLY the case.
stop using their money and problem solved.
the issue is. it is a nash equilibrium society is trapped in. a prisoner dilemma.
everyone would neex to stop.... but the grocery stores, the hair dressers, the bakery, the sports club, the plumber, the doctor, the bus driver... literally everyone needs it every say so they have to earn it.
IT IS HARD to stop using their money
@serapath @joepie91 @powersource that's the metallist version, which is wrong. You cannot stop using it, because you need to pay your taxes in the currency of your sovereign. That's where fiat money derive is value from.
Again, #MMT is incredibly useful here.
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource
so far the theory
...but in practice the governments since forever are corrupt. just like the money printing to the billionaires, the small ruling class always keeps loopholes open to escape taxation.
in a divided world you can of course threate countries that dont agree.. but then you create a trade war, maybe a cold or even hot war.
...but with bitcoin... or any other such open source alternative mechanism you can do it peacefully
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource
what you say as taxes dont alow you to stop using it also means the corrupt politicians and their billionaire amigos - because lets be honest it is always big and old money who campaigns chooses candidates and creates the government... its never the people or a rqndom citizen...
it always has been like that.
sometimes it is trump. then it was bush... even under obama... in practice not much has changed. the rich and mighty execute their strategy and capitalism
@serapath @joepie91 @powersource you can do what peacefully?
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource
if you dont accept the money of the capitalist opressors, ..and have a new mecha ism those capitalists dont control and cant enrich themselves by pressing a button - printing money... they cant pay for the mercenaries, employees, equipment, ...even weapons... to enforce their rules
@joelving @joepie91 @powersource
and all it takes is not to fight or demolish anything, but not use their systems and money, but instead an alternative more people empowering mechanism...
@serapath @joelving @powersource And why is it hard?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
Because i can stop, but if everyone else does not stop at the same time to switch to something else... i will still need money to pay rent, pay for groceries, and everything else in life and those peoppe who charge me are in the same situation and need that money to pay for their bills as well
@serapath @joelving @powersource And why are they not stopping? Why have attempts at alternative currencies failed? Why do people not gradually transition?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
they cant stop.
because if you jump from a high place and a crowd coordinated to catch you... you can jump. concerts can create such a place.
but if you jump before people coordinate you fall and hurt yourself.
samw with money. everything around you is priced in e.g. dollar or eur or wherever you are from and if you dont have it because you use a new mechanism and nobody else does... it doesnt work
everyone must switch to it fast enough
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource why have attempts at alternative currencies failed?
because it is hard.
it gets cracked down by capitalists.
or it gets corrupted
or it is made so imprqctical that it doesnt work in practice.
many approaches have been tried i'd say, but it is hard.
...which is why bitcoin is such an interesting phenomenon. doesn have to be bitcoin ... its ooen source it could be something else with similar or whatever rules, but needs to become a schelling point imho
@serapath @joelving @powersource There's a reason I brought up exchanging - if what you say is correct, then it should simply be a matter of exchanging to whichever currency you need for a given transaction. Annoying, sure, but doable. It could even be automated.
So. Why isn't that happening? That's the question I'm asking.
And "it gets cracked down on by capitalists" is getting closer to the answer, but it is not the full answer. *HOW* does it get cracked down on? What is ultimately the thing that gives capitalists the power to crack down on this?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
first of all, yes we can switch currencies, but which? every time i switch to one, i again give power to different capitalists.
and the power is given to capitalists by having a money printer for the currency we use to receive "slave wages". it allows them to print their VC startup investment programs out of nothing... hire everyone, buy everyones labour to do what they want.
governments and their crook politicians on all sides do that.
how did elon get it?
@serapath @joelving @powersource That is not the correct answer. If that were the answer, nothing would stop people from transitioning, because none of it exists in any way other than through social convention.
So what's the actual way in which capitalists can crack down on alternative currencies?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
they crack down on whoever runs it.
they can also hire everyone and outcompete any business that tries to use it. they use their rich buying power to smash it.
they also try that with bitcoin, but it is just a lot harder, just like it is hard to get rid of bit torrent.
bitcoin or any similar approach - thats the whole point.
they do invent shitcoin scams though to confuse people.
also bitcoin not as the holy grail, but as some current real wirld instance
@serapath @joelving @powersource Again, "buying power" is a social convention that hinges on people accepting 'their' money as legitimate, so that's not the answer.
So *how* are they cracking down? What form of power do they have that cannot be trivially opposed?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
its prisonner dilemma
its nash equilibrium
its network effect
everyone currently acxepta capitalist currencies.
if you switch but nobody else does, you isolate yourself ... and cant rent or buy groceries.
same with facebook. if you switch alone, all tour friends are still on facebook and you are isolated.
good that we have mastodon, but those switches of a critical amount of ppl requires effort
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
and for as long as most people STILL stay on facebook or twitter/X ...the owners have a lot of control over narrative.
same with currency - the owners who can print can basically shop for free and own the most and become billionaires
@serapath @joelving @powersource No, it is not. The network effect only applies for cases where a gradual transition is not viable. This is not one of those, if it works as you describe. So that isn't the answer either.
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
gradual transition is MORE viable in a social network... e.g. from facebook to mastodon, than it is from EUR pr USD to a non-capitalist currency...
the network effect is insanely strong.
without money your are cut out of society immediately ...but you can suevive without social media.
how can you not see the network effect?
its a dictionary definitiin example of network effect.
@serapath @joelving @powersource As I have explained several times now, you can keep using the old currency and only use the new currency with those who also accept it, and exchange between the two as needed - money has an interoperability that social networks do not.
You claim that that would be "cracked down upon" and I am still asking you *how* that would happen, because social convention alone does not make that possible.
Social networks have control over user account suspension and their APIs, and can limit interoperability, and that's how they can crack down on gradual transitions. Governments do not have that control over money.
So, how do they do it?
@serapath @joelving @powersource I'm trying to get you to actually reason through the steps of what that 'crackdown' might look like and what would happen if you refuse to cooperate, rather than just saying "network effect" as some sort of magical incantation with inherent power (which it doesn't have; it needs an enforcement mechanism).
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
you use your money printer to attack all services and products made by people who use the aptenrative currency and potentially make alternative curreny illegal as well.
it depends on the situation.
the crackdown on bitcoin is more difficult just like it is harder to crack down on bit torrent of course
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
governments cant do that with bitcoin.
gradual transition is whats possible with bitcoin.
it could be something else than bitcoin, but if it is centralized, it will be attacked like everything before bitcoin was and stopped.
i would anyway never recommend to adopt anything if it just changes the overlords.
bitcoin has no overlords... it will have some who are rich... but thats pragmatic. i wish for something better, but it is hard. suggestions are welcome 🙂
@serapath @joelving @powersource I am going to stop trying to have this conversation because you keep making vague allusions to "attacks on Bitcoin" without ever substantiating what those attacks actually *are* and how they would work, and this is looking a lot more like a persecution complex than like a genuine failure and power dynamics analysis.
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
real world instance of ending money printers at 21 million.
of course other rules/proposals are possible, but they need to be agreed on by enough to start lobbying and promoting people to switch to it because it would be even better than bitcoin....
...which yeah, i am open - let me know what you propose... or how you would solve the issues
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
we would need to collectively reach consensus.
we would need to koordinate at the same time to switch to a new alternative way of doing things.
that seems impossible unless you create a shelling point. something everyone can promote and convere to and agree on and then make up a date to switch collectively...
without such a schelling point, people are neither aware nor can they agree on what to even do... hence stay trapped in the status quo
@serapath @joelving @powersource Why do we "need to collectively reach consensus"? Why can we not simply gradually change over to another currency, exchanging between the two in the process during the transition period?
I want you to really *think* about this question.
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
maybe we could, but it is really really tough.
bitcoin is already and still a niche phoenomenon and only gradually switching.
i am not saying you cant gradually switch, but how?
how do you create such a decentralized neutral mechanism that does not discriminate so that everyone can switch?
if a group of ppl starts it... then other groups wont adopt it, because they are team red and not team blue or whatever other politics and tribal games and who controls
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
i am up for it, but tell me how.
what do you propose?
bitcoin is just an interesting phenomenon and i can see some pros and reasons why it could be an imorovement over the status quo.
i cant see any other proposal that will lead us collectively out of capitalism as we know it.
do you have anything in mind?
@joepie91 @serapath @powersource exactly. I'm not saying you shouldn't rein in money printing by changing the rules of commercial lending. We should for sure. But the ability of government to spend without first getting the money from the rich is a powerful advantage that we shouldn't throw away. #MMT is useful in illuminating this.
And in the long run, without changing rules of ownership, none of it matters.