Today I stumbled upon a very intersting (but also lengthy) blog post discussing currencies (crypto and fiat).
Thought provoking.
I definitely recommend reading it.
If anyone has any opinions on what is being said I'd be interested to hear them.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of the article, but points out a lot of interesting things which might be very relevant now that trump was elected.
@serapath "If you want to compare Bitcoin to something else, compare it to fire, the number zero, the wheel, the printing press, or electricity." Sorry this is just hilarious
I agree that this is a rather funny comparison.
The main idea for it - i assume - is that there is no central issuer, it is decentralized and limited in supply. That has never been achieved in history, even if you wanted, nobody could create such a mechanism.
I think it could end capitalism
@serapath @powersource you cannot end capitalism without ending capital, i.e., private property. Changing the rules of money which have no inherent value changes nothing if the ability to exclude people from using the real assets of the world remains unchanged.
In lieu of that, the ability to conduct monetary policy with fiat money is one of the few tools we could use to loosen the hold that billionaires have over us - if we dared. Part of that would be to change the rules of credit.
@joelving @powersource
i disagree.
houses exist. streets exist.
somebody owns it.
maybe a rich billionaire.
maybe "the city" (e.g. controlled thrn by whoever governs it) ..like a republican major... trump... some rightwinger, maybe some left winger... but some small group of folks controls it.
maybe a small community owns it, and defends it against outsiders.
accountants will write it into books.
the ability to exclude people gets reduced dramatically if we end niney printers.
no more mkney to print to pay exorbitant police and military.
no more money printer to buy up all stuff and inflate other peoples wealth away so they wouldnt be able to have access any ire because they cant pay
@serapath @joelving @powersource The rich do not get rich through printing money. They get rich through exploitation.
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
the rich get rich through money printing which is the exploitation.
they hire the poor and give them pieces of paper for their labour.... and they can because they print it
@serapath @joelving @powersource ... no, that is not how it works, and that is not where the power dynamics are. If it were that simple, you could simply decide not to use their money and the problem would be solved. The fact that that hasn't happened should tell you that there's more going on here.
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
no i think that IS EXACTLY the case.
stop using their money and problem solved.
the issue is. it is a nash equilibrium society is trapped in. a prisoner dilemma.
everyone would neex to stop.... but the grocery stores, the hair dressers, the bakery, the sports club, the plumber, the doctor, the bus driver... literally everyone needs it every say so they have to earn it.
IT IS HARD to stop using their money
@serapath @joelving @powersource And why is it hard?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
Because i can stop, but if everyone else does not stop at the same time to switch to something else... i will still need money to pay rent, pay for groceries, and everything else in life and those peoppe who charge me are in the same situation and need that money to pay for their bills as well
@serapath @joelving @powersource And why are they not stopping? Why have attempts at alternative currencies failed? Why do people not gradually transition?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
they cant stop.
because if you jump from a high place and a crowd coordinated to catch you... you can jump. concerts can create such a place.
but if you jump before people coordinate you fall and hurt yourself.
samw with money. everything around you is priced in e.g. dollar or eur or wherever you are from and if you dont have it because you use a new mechanism and nobody else does... it doesnt work
everyone must switch to it fast enough
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource why have attempts at alternative currencies failed?
because it is hard.
it gets cracked down by capitalists.
or it gets corrupted
or it is made so imprqctical that it doesnt work in practice.
many approaches have been tried i'd say, but it is hard.
...which is why bitcoin is such an interesting phenomenon. doesn have to be bitcoin ... its ooen source it could be something else with similar or whatever rules, but needs to become a schelling point imho
@serapath @joelving @powersource There's a reason I brought up exchanging - if what you say is correct, then it should simply be a matter of exchanging to whichever currency you need for a given transaction. Annoying, sure, but doable. It could even be automated.
So. Why isn't that happening? That's the question I'm asking.
And "it gets cracked down on by capitalists" is getting closer to the answer, but it is not the full answer. *HOW* does it get cracked down on? What is ultimately the thing that gives capitalists the power to crack down on this?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
first of all, yes we can switch currencies, but which? every time i switch to one, i again give power to different capitalists.
and the power is given to capitalists by having a money printer for the currency we use to receive "slave wages". it allows them to print their VC startup investment programs out of nothing... hire everyone, buy everyones labour to do what they want.
governments and their crook politicians on all sides do that.
how did elon get it?
@serapath @joelving @powersource That is not the correct answer. If that were the answer, nothing would stop people from transitioning, because none of it exists in any way other than through social convention.
So what's the actual way in which capitalists can crack down on alternative currencies?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
they crack down on whoever runs it.
they can also hire everyone and outcompete any business that tries to use it. they use their rich buying power to smash it.
they also try that with bitcoin, but it is just a lot harder, just like it is hard to get rid of bit torrent.
bitcoin or any similar approach - thats the whole point.
they do invent shitcoin scams though to confuse people.
also bitcoin not as the holy grail, but as some current real wirld instance
@serapath @joelving @powersource Again, "buying power" is a social convention that hinges on people accepting 'their' money as legitimate, so that's not the answer.
So *how* are they cracking down? What form of power do they have that cannot be trivially opposed?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
its prisonner dilemma
its nash equilibrium
its network effect
everyone currently acxepta capitalist currencies.
if you switch but nobody else does, you isolate yourself ... and cant rent or buy groceries.
same with facebook. if you switch alone, all tour friends are still on facebook and you are isolated.
good that we have mastodon, but those switches of a critical amount of ppl requires effort
@serapath @joelving @powersource No, it is not. The network effect only applies for cases where a gradual transition is not viable. This is not one of those, if it works as you describe. So that isn't the answer either.
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
gradual transition is MORE viable in a social network... e.g. from facebook to mastodon, than it is from EUR pr USD to a non-capitalist currency...
the network effect is insanely strong.
without money your are cut out of society immediately ...but you can suevive without social media.
how can you not see the network effect?
its a dictionary definitiin example of network effect.
@serapath @joelving @powersource As I have explained several times now, you can keep using the old currency and only use the new currency with those who also accept it, and exchange between the two as needed - money has an interoperability that social networks do not.
You claim that that would be "cracked down upon" and I am still asking you *how* that would happen, because social convention alone does not make that possible.
Social networks have control over user account suspension and their APIs, and can limit interoperability, and that's how they can crack down on gradual transitions. Governments do not have that control over money.
So, how do they do it?
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
you use your money printer to attack all services and products made by people who use the aptenrative currency and potentially make alternative curreny illegal as well.
it depends on the situation.
the crackdown on bitcoin is more difficult just like it is harder to crack down on bit torrent of course
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource if you use your money printer to specifically make and pay and subsidize businesses that make the exact kinds of services and products those alternative folks make and you also offer everyone among the alternative folks to pay them high salaries if they switch... it eventually collapses.
this is what capitalists imho seem to try with bitcion as well, but just like bittorrent, its digita, decentralized and a global phenomenon, so a bit more difficult...
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
governments cant do that with bitcoin.
gradual transition is whats possible with bitcoin.
it could be something else than bitcoin, but if it is centralized, it will be attacked like everything before bitcoin was and stopped.
i would anyway never recommend to adopt anything if it just changes the overlords.
bitcoin has no overlords... it will have some who are rich... but thats pragmatic. i wish for something better, but it is hard. suggestions are welcome 🙂
@serapath @joelving @powersource I am going to stop trying to have this conversation because you keep making vague allusions to "attacks on Bitcoin" without ever substantiating what those attacks actually *are* and how they would work, and this is looking a lot more like a persecution complex than like a genuine failure and power dynamics analysis.
@joepie91 @joelving @powersource
yes attacking bitcoin is harder.
you can make anti propaganda... which is what the capitalists do.
you can try to regulate it and make it illegal, which is what they do.
you can also try to hire talent away, which is what they do... but it is global and there are just a lot of people.
so yes. attacking now in general is harder, but it happens and in the past too. in the past it wasnt decentralized so regio currencies could never grow or convince enough ppl
@serapath @joelving @powersource I'm trying to get you to actually reason through the steps of what that 'crackdown' might look like and what would happen if you refuse to cooperate, rather than just saying "network effect" as some sort of magical incantation with inherent power (which it doesn't have; it needs an enforcement mechanism).