@joepie91 There may not be consensus, but there are definitely a lot of people who want the fediverse to grow, and who invite people to join through active promotion, which at least gives the impression (at first) that one is welcome. Unfortunately, one only finds out that there is also a somewhat hostile contingent that does not want any expansion, and lots of opinions in between, after joining. But with the high threshold of joining,...

@joepie91 ...the sunk cost fallacy kicks in. By the time one has picked a server, made an account, has read one or more of the newcomer guides, and has written an intro post, and picked a few dozen accounts to follow, they're probably much less receptive towards the idea that it would perhaps have been better if none of that had happened.

@whreq My criticism is not so much towards the newcomers, to be clear, as it is to a specific contingent of people who just stormed ahead and started trying to Grow The Network without talking to anyone else, and basically trying to speak on behalf of the entire network with no acknowledgment whatsoever of the lack of consensus on this.

@whreq (And I understand that this wasn't very clear to many of the newcomers - they mostly just ended up being collateral damage in the conflict, more or less)

@joepie91 Do you think consensus is even possible, given the diametrically opposed opinions on this topic?

@whreq It may not be. But that is not a reason to just storm ahead and not give a shit about the rest; it's a reason to tread cautiously and carefully think about how to approach this without causing excessive issues for others. And that simply didn't happen.

Basically, in any conflict, the healthy way to resolve it is to collectively find the solution that works the best for everybody. What happened here is that one group went "well I don't care what you want, *I* want this network to grow bigger, so fuck you" and just went full steam ahead on their own preferences.

@whreq And that is how we ended up with the overall hostility. It was entirely avoidable if said people actually took the time to talk this through with others.

@joepie91 Honestly I doubt it. If there is no feasible middle ground (which is usually the conviction of those who believe extreme growth is the way forward), asking for opinions and then "ignoring" them anyway (which is how it will be perceived since there is no moving toward the middle) can also easily make matters worse. And given the circumstances with Xitter, I think what fedi got in practice is medium growth anyway ...

@joepie91 ... Since it seems that most people who consider giving it a try don't get past the picking a server stage, or the follow people because otherwise your timeline will be empty stage.

@whreq @joepie91 i personally believe it's nobodys place to prescribe what others should be doing to fedi since it's up to you to create your own place..? This includes both the criticism of "unsolicited" activity trying to grow fedi and 'having to be welcoming'. Of course I think you should be excellent to everyone but they don't have an intrinsic right to follow you or something.? Nor do I think 'growth conservatives' have the right to stop people promoting the platform. (not that they have the ability to do so, either)

I understand this is related to *pic attached, but i don't think fedi is the right place for gated communities...

regardless, between followers-only posting, selective federation, and approve-followers, a lot is possible.

@whreq I was there when people were trying to have that conversation and got paved over.

@joepie91 Right, and do you recognize what happened in my post facto prediction?

@whreq I do not believe that there are circumstances where there is no middle ground. I do agree that there will be a non-zero amount of people who will not compromise on anything under any circumstances, regardless of whether there are any concrete concerns. I do not think that that would have done anywhere near the damage that has occurred now (and I am also talking about damage to the *existing* community, not just "scaring away newcomers").

@joepie91 Especially from the perspective of growth-inspired people, there seems to be no middle ground; growth must be as much as the system could handle without breaking down completely. Damage is considered acceptable because those are just "growing pains" - *expected* even.

Just for the record, I think among the both of us, we mostly agree :)

@whreq Right. But that is a very small minority of people in practice, and that is Their Problem, to put it bluntly. It does not create an obligation on anyone else's part to accept that goal.

And in practice, most people just are not *that* growth-obsessed, and are more just operating on assumptions about what 'success' looks like, and are entirely capable of finding a middle ground. Including many of the people who are loud about it.

@joepie91 Well, considering that there is no system in place to keep anyone in check or even repair things after the fact, it's everyone's problem now. Basically the bad kind of anarchism.

@joepie91 Personally, I've adopted "if you don't want me here, just don't follow me" and started blocking/muting people who acted hostile towards "newcomers", which was a great improvement of my experience using Mastodon. I know some people who quit instead. Which I think is a great loss for everyone involved, including those who behaved in a less than welcoming fashion.