Analytics are the digital version of the colonialist legacy over obsessing over cataloging absolutely everything to attempt to find patterns in what is essentially entropy. "Finding" patterns (so not proving causation, but just masturbating over trends) just leads to really crappy user experiences. It depends on what you measure for too, the Europeans had an obsession with cranium sizes, so they found trends in that...

I think it is clear where this goes, nonsense.

You don't need analytics, just traffic logs.

@thufie that's why I don't run analytics on, although it's a podcast site
I actually want to stay ignorant about how many people listen to Joel's podcast

@thufie Web page analytics are built by and for sociopaths.

Here's an escapee from the cult of advertising going into disgusting detail about how the entire thing revolves around grifters bullshitting each other to determine which one gets paid when you buy something, and how analytics (and IRL surveillance capitalism) plays into that:

@flussence I forgot about that blog post, it is amazing. Thanks for sending!

@flussence Yet virtually all of us merrily have supported and accepted the idea of the WWW being a large store for "free-as-in-free-beer" content, leaving ad-based refunding apparently the last and only business model that somehow works. The very moment we start paying for web resources we use and start demanding and supporting web sites offering such models, this problem will start to go away.

@z428 @thufie don't proselytize that shit to me on a fediverse that exists without advertising.

@flussence @z428 I think they mean sites should be paid services. I disagree just because it is clear the community can hold up the fediverse on donations alone, there doesn't need to be a paywall.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

@flussence @z428 well if I'm being realistic with anything run with donations it is more like from each according to their privilege...

@thufie Yes. The community is likely to be able to hold up the #fediverse. But a lot of the content out here - posted news pages links, YouTube videos, professionally recorded music, ... - possibly won't exist in an ad-free "pro-bono" kind of way. Would be great if so, but at the moment I don't see that. 😐


@z428 @flussence the only reason the proprietary platforms exist right now is because they keep borrowing money, they don't profit. These aren't profitable services, by their nature they are communal. So I see it the exact opposite way. If tech giants weren't "too big to fail" centralized stuff would be impossible at current scale.

@thufie I'm unsure here. I think a lot of "proprietary" platforms (in example online newspapers, magazines, ...) exist because they are fed by people (journalists, writers, photographers, ...) that do a good job on what they do but can't afford to do so for free so they need *some* kind of refunding after all.


Ever heard the term "techbro"? Well, you're a techbro, congratulations.


@dtluna Interesting kind of reasoning and dealing with arguments. But that's okay to me. Bunch of very good friends of mine are photographers and ever since trying to somehow get hold of their pictures freely, in some cases even commercially, being copied and spread throughout the 'net, fediverse included unfortunately. But why deal with such things if we might as well ignore them.

@z428 @flussence I think you underestimate the delay that credit arrangements have introduced into the market economy in terms of allowing bubbles to float for so long without popping. The companies providing these services rely on that delay to become a monopoly, because they can only make it profitable as a monopoly. The rest are probably just doomed to operate at a loss forever.

@thufie Yes. And a lot of nontechnical people somehow depending on earning a living on the web will lose forever too. That's why I still firmly believe fighting ad and tracking same as fighting venture capitalism needs to provide better alternatives to those folks as well.

@z428 @flussence you and I agree to a certain point in identifying this particular issue, but I just see it as a symptom of a larger problem.

@thufie Yes, that's *exactly* my point: Ads and tracking are just a symptom of a much larger problem, and I see much time and effort spent on fighting that symptom rather than fixing that bigger problem. And I am afraid that fixing this symptom won't change much about who wins and who loses in the current setup - but just make life a bit more difficult for people on the losing end of things. πŸ˜•

@thufie ... and that's where I still hope that, rather from re-iterating why ads and tracking are bad, at some point we will find a viable way acceptable to all users that don't *require* this kind of mechanisms anymore.


@z428 @thufie @flussence If your business model requires spying on your users you need to find a new one.

@hexmasteen While I generally agree, this seem to oversimplify the actual problems of "platform economy" especially in terms of who is earning money by spying on users (large platform operators) vs. who loses in such an environment (like a plethora of small vendors which essentially had little chance but signing up for Amazon marketplace with the free internet more and more shrinking ... πŸ˜‘).
@thufie @flussence

@flussence I wonder how many of the people out here need to make a living and pay bills (not just server hosting but also things such as food or flat rent) from what they do on the #fediverse, though ...


@z428 @flussence I have never met a server admin who expected to pay their rent by running a mastodon instance. it is a community service, not a business. Only a developer might expect anything like that.

@thufie A server operator possibly will, too, as soon as providing the service comes with certain expectations in terms of availability and uptime. Would you want to fix a crashed #fediverse instance at December 31, 23:59, knowing your users want to send new years cheers to their loved ones a moment later...? πŸ˜‰


@thufie collect just enough analytics to give meaningful alerts when shit’s broken

@thufie feeding logs into a sms bot or pagerduty is not my idea of a good time

@riking that if you are operating at scale and need that kind of feedback are there not ways which don't involve entire analytics suites?

@thufie oh right i’m talking server side β€œβ€analytics”” not client side analytics products

@riking @thufie I love* the internet and "big data"

*hate. Statistics has a bad enough history as it is
@riking @thufie In reinventing the statistical wheel, the computer scientists/"AI researchers" seem to be reinventing the eugenics stuff that is where half of stats comes from
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